CGC BOOKS - THE INFINITE COMIC CRISIS ON EARTH
Currently, there is a very sad, malevalent presence in the comic collecting world,
and once again, the comic collector will pay the price. To get right to the point,
it is this writers opinion that the C.G.C. is a S.C.A.M.!
I always believed that half of the fun in comic collecting is evaluating and
grading your comics, and the other half was reading them. When the CGC slabs a comic
you can no longer do either. Do you think if I called a book CGC 9.5, it would
get the same price as one that is an official CGC 9.5 graded book. That would
be a very interesting experiment. To list the same book on ebay in and out of
the package. What do you think would happen? Opening a CGC graded book is just
like driving a new car off the car lot. How much money can you loose in one
meaningless action. I have owned a comic store for 6 years now, and when the CGC
grading started, I saw many other dealers sending all there high grade books to
cash in on this trend. Personally, I have to stick to my beliefs that this is wrong.
And as a dealer with integrity, I refuse to send books or even buy books that have
been slabed. I recently saw a copy of Spawn #1 with a CGC grade of
10.0 get a winning bid on an ebay auction of $900. I just dont get it.
I envision a bidder at home who has had one too many beers, thinking....
"what can I waste my money on today?".
If the overstreet guide says that a comic in NM/M is a specific price, how in the
world can it be worth 2-5 times that, just because a group of a few guys say it is.
Doesnt the word "Mint" mean mint. I guess a CGC books is EXTRA mint, a new
catagory. It means that it is so mint, that if you stand next to it, your aging
process will reverse, and you will start to accumulate value. There must
be about a ba-zillion different comics that are worth more than a spawn #1 and
sooo many more that are a better investment for that kind of money.
Let me parallel this with someone who is an automobile collector/enthusiast.
If you went to a new car dealership and bought a brand new "mint" car and
encased it in plastic, would that car suddenly be worth 2-3 times what you
paid for it? And what good would it be once it is in plastic, it can no
longer function for what it was created to do.
I truely understand that the market is supply and demand, and in an auction,
the market determines the price. But the fundamental problem here is, who is
the winner and who is the loser? Obviously the CGC is making some good money
from this service (and I am not faulting them for that, they are being paid
for a legitamate service that does take skill and time). The loser however, is
definately the consumer. They are paying way too much money for books that are
not worth the value (an over inflated market). Did we not learn anything from
the Valiant era? Remember that? A bunch of books that were "Hot" and everybody
wanted them, and the price was so over inflated, that when the market dropped,
you could here the thud in the artic regions of the planet.
With CGC graded books, we are no longer comic collectors, just investors in
wall art!
Michael Berlowe
Toons and Beyond Comic store
Since I posted this article, I have had hundreds of emails in response.
Quite honestly, about 98% in agreement with most of my statements. However,
I have gotten some not so agreeable emails. I truely appreciate all the emails,
but have posted below the counter points I have gotten in emails, and my responses,
to help further the discussion. Please read on...
RESPONSE TO MY ARTICLE
I stumbled upon your letter about how you think the CGC grading is a
scam and your opinions on it. You obviously did very little research
on what it really is and why it exists. First of all, i checked up
on some of the cgc grading myself, and found a list w/ pictures of the
people who actually grade the comics. one of them is an advisor for
'Overstreet', the well known price guide, he actually helps set the
standards for grading. But most importantly, your comment on, and I quote
"If you went to a new car dealership and bought a brand new "mint" car and
encased it in plastic, would that car suddenly be worth 2-3 times what you
paid for it?", makes for a very very very very poor argument.
I have collect comics for only about 10 years, but I have always been
serious about it. I might have read about 5 out of my 600 books, because i
want them to be in great condition. you said the books can't be used when they are in
plastic. well your correct, only if you are a reader. but cgc is for collectors
who do NOT want to risk their books being destroyed by wear or abuse. A true
collector never opens a comic anyways, stress marks are not good when selling.
Also when the book is in the case, the grade on it will always be valid and
accepted. I have purchased many books on ebay and lots of times they will say
'VF+ book, very hot' but forget to mention if a page is missing or something like
that. CGC makes it so you can always tell w/o opening it if there is a major defect,
and if people are sure the book is good they will pay more. The plastic has
little to do w/ it, its what it says that matters. And what dumbass would
put a case on a car, even care collectors know that is useless and might actually
ruin it, but not for comics. As for why their value increases so much is an
obvious reason that you should understand if you really are an owner of a comic
shop. I'll use an example of one of my books. Hulk 181, very popular, listed
around $700-800, that is if the book is in great condition, it might have offwhite
pages and some stress marks, but if it has all its stamps and nothing missing
from a page then it'll go for that price. If a book still has great color,
white pages, and looks almost new then it is worth ALOT more, up to 3x its
standard value. WHY? you ask, because of how rare it is. old book that are
in great condition are hard to find! and in high demand. just like old cars.
There is alot more to say, but you should check up on CGCCOMICS.com and other
sites. if you as a dealer want to make more money w/ your business then you
should grade your comics worth over $100, but only if
they are in decent condition."
--Thank you for your time,
My Reply:
Thank you for your opinion, but I think you have missed the point.
You state "what dumbass would put a case on a car". I bet I could
find a bunch of car collectors who would say "what dumbass would put
a case on a comic book" doesn't that defeat the purpose of the term "book".
You do not seem to understand the bottom line. This is a new inflated market
created by a bunch of guys who state that this process makes the books more
valuable. Yes, some of the graders are overstreet advisers, so what!
The overstreet guide is just that, a guide. The so called experts who set
the standard of grading are the ones being the most hypocritical. If a book
is VF/NM and they give it a price in their guide as VF/NM (which they clearly
describe how to get that grade and price), how can they say the same books is
2-3 time more valuable because it is in a slab. What if another service comes
along and says that if you take a slabbed book and have another panel examine
it, they will put a gold stamp on the outside and it will have a new petigree
title. I bet consumers would buy into that, and the prices would go up
further. Next, comic manufacturers will send there books directly to the
slabbers for grading before they make it to the public. Eventually all
books will get slabbed. O.K. this is an exageration, but the point is,
comics get valuable based on condition and rarity. Why do you think golden
age books are much more valuable than new books. Because there are less, and
fewer in good condition. If you created a process to enclose all books, well
100 years from now, there will be the same amount of books in the same condition,
no value change, hence the market is lost for collectibles.
How can you say that once a book is slabbed "the grade on it will always be
valid and accepted", when I can refer you do a bunch of comic book store
owners and dealer who do think it is valid and do not accept the prices they
command. Further, I know people who disagree with the grade put on many
of these slabbed books, who have been grading comics longer than overstreet
has been in business. You said that you have been collecting comics for 10
years, then you should have seen this same phenominon with the valiant comics
market. People paying 100's of dollars for supposedly rare books that drove
up the prices of these books, until people got sick of it, and the price on
all them dropped like a rock, and drove valiant out of business.
I have received 100s of comments on my article, and you are the first to
disagree. I am not saying you are wrong, and I value your opionion. But you
need to understand that many of these so called Slabbed books are not
encased in "acid free" protection, so they will still deteriorate and turn
yellow regardless.
I guarantee you that at some point, people will get sick of this, and the
market will drop like a rock. I will feel really bad for those who spent
a lot of money on this. As I stated on my site, I refuse to buy into this
and scam my customers with slabbed books. It is not a matter of making more
money for my store, it is a matter of be honest and true to my customs and
the comic business.
Mike
FOLLOW UP RESPONSE
"I do understand your point, but comics are not really considered books
when they are collected, but ratherinvestments. For several years baseball
bats, balls, basketballs, gloves, helmets, hockeypucks and other sport
equipment that has been signed or used by players have been incased
in plastic to keep themsafe. Although as you said it wont keep them form
fading, it will still guard them from damaging in other ways. People still
case sport equipment inplastic, but thats because they know they are not
going to use that item because it is rare. people willalways try to
protect what they value, and that is why people will continue to
pay money for CGC grading.It's not just comics that are being cased, its tons of
items that are small enough to be cased. why do you think toys are worth so much
UNopened?????? you can't use them for what they were made to be used for right,
that's what you would say.but they are in perfect condition, and that is the way
people want them to be. I know you don't agree with cgc grading making them
worth 2-3x more than book price, but I also know youwill see why people
will continue to pay for it, because it makes them ALOT more money in the long run.
and the comment about the Overstreet being "just a guide". well that guide
makes people money, that guidekeeps comic stores in business so the owners can feed
their familis. W/o price guides, things like the first action comics would be sold
for $30-80, rather than asmuch as 10,000- $100,000. with out a guideline, there
would be no value..."
My Follow up Response:
Points well taken, but you keep coming back to making money. "It keeps
comic stores in busines so they can feed their families?" First off,
the comic business in not a money making endevour, unless you are
steve geppi, owner of diamond comics. Why do you think comic book stores
open and close all time. These owners believe as you do that they can
make a bunch of money, which is not true, and they fail and close there
stores. It is only the owners such as myself that do this for the sake
of the collector and the passion for comics that stay in business, because
we realize there is no pot of gold to be attained (unless of course you stash
your comics for 60 years). Secondly, it is not the overstreet guide that makes
money for people. Geez, I have about 4 copies of teen titans #1 that are worth
about $50 each (according to overstreet). But if I try to sell one, even on ebay,
I am lucky to get $20. It is just a guide, what determines the price
is what people are willing to pay. That is why the CGC is hot, because it is
a fad, and people are willing to pay right now. I guarantee you that if ebay
did not exist, people would not give a damn about CGC.
I totally agree with you about protecting comics, that is what mylars and
case are for. But I do not need a so called expert panel to tell me that a
book is a particular grade. I was listening to NPR on the radio yesterday and
they were discussing the comic business. Mostly that it is a dying art, what
with kids now into video games and such, and that even DC and Marvel are having
a tough time making a go of it. All they discussed is very true, I see it every
day, with the prices of comics as they are, and most of my customers being teens
or older. And I believe that as the market drops, so too will the comic
industry. True, some will always be collectible. But be very careful about
CGC books from the 70's or later, as they have not been around long enough
to demand the prices they get.
This is a subject they we obviously will not reach any agreement on,
but I have appreciated the discussion, and just offer the advise to
watch what you pay for. I have seen markets come and go many times,
and many people get burned. Just remember, only pay the amount that
it is worth to you, because in the long run, that may end up being all
its worth,
Mike
FOLLOW UP RESPONSE
"thanks Mike for your advise and knowledge from your years as a
collector. There is one very big thing I do agree on,
and that is alot of times comics are only worth what
you pay for. I only bid on books that look great but I
know i can get VERY low. the best one was a book
valued at $700, and I was able to get for $100. then
when it arrived, I knew I did well. The book only had
off-white pages and 3 small stress marks. If i got it
graded I could probably sell it for $1000. But I need
to look more into it.
And your right comic stores do crash all the time,
there is only one in my valley that has lasted over
15years, which is really good. "
thanks for responding to my letters.
RESPONSES TO MY ARTICLE
"I understand and respect your opinion that it might take the fun out of
reading the comic and grading it yourself. but it has many benefits. for
instance, an amateur as well as many professional comic book collectors and
dealers would not be able to recognize a comic book that had been restored
by a professional, so it gives a heads up there. another thing is that it's
quality can't deteroirate once in the case. And i think it's partially a
scam too, the website says grading costs a minimum of 25$ a book? that's
horrible. and the reason a 10.0 spawn would catch 900 dollars is because a
10.0 of any comic book is nearly impossible to come by, the same goes for
9.8s. and plus you don't have to worry about so much, that's why it's so
much better."
My Reply:
Thank you for visiting my site, and for your feedback. However, to respond,
I understand that a 10 in any comic is hard to come by, but under NO circustances
should a spawn 1 get $900. The next thing you know, publishers
will send there books directly to get the graded so that they are all 9.8s
or 10's even before they get to the market. I say "so what", a new comic book
can only be valuable for its content, not its gloss and condition. Older comics
of course are valuable in better conditions, because of the rarity of that book
in that condition. I do not think the two can be equated.
Further, I do not know who told you that it cannot deteriorate in the case,
but that is not true. Leave one in the sun
for a day or two and see what happens. I guarantee you that a few years
from now, the grades coming out of the cases will not be the same as the
grades going in. They still get exposed to light, temperatures and any moisture they
are sealed with. I know a dealer down in phoenix that had a book graded by
CGC as VG. He removed it from the case and the spine was so dry that the
cover had seperated from the spine on contact. Sure they are protected,
but no more than you or I putting them in a mylar bag. I disagree with you, I think
when a book is sealed you have to worry more, you do not know the flaws
associated with the book, other than what they tell you. The restoration point
is a valid one, but any reputable dealer would give you that info anyway.
Thanks for your comments,
Mike
FOLLOW UP RESPONSE
"a dealer might give me that info about restoration true, but it's supposed
to cut out dealers and make everyone have the same level of knowledge.
and a plastic bag being the same? nooooo way, this protects them from being
crushed, protects corners, a plastic bag just doesn't offer that. and think
about it like this; a lot of people probably kept the number one avengers in a
plastic bag, but imagine if everyone who had one kept it in one of those cases
slabbed if they had existed at the time, i think, and i think you would agree
that we would see a lot more #1 avengers in really good condition than we do.
and the sun will be a factor no matter what, but i think with old good condition
comics, those rarely find their ways into the hands of someone wouldn't know
what damage the sun does, nonetheless take it tanning with them. and they
are very accurate with errors that are in the comics, like little surverys
that are filled out get noted, send away tickets that are filled out but not
sent are noted on the cover too. and spawn 900 dollars, well, people are idiots.
they always have been and they always will be. chances are the person who paid
that has a really shitty collection of comics, has no brains, or is somehow
related to the comic itself like some editor or something. the whole reason
that it's so popular is that it eliminates all fears of conditions of the
comic and the possibility of selling it. i enjoy comic books, but i think
buying an iron man #1 cgc 9.4 will have a higher yearly return than the 1%
they're giving at the bank. and i've always loved comics, but i see it as a
cool way to keep money, like if they had thundercats 100 dollar bills, i know
that's what i'd want to keep around. if you don't think slabbing them is beneficial
for comic trading, then you would argue that the same could be said for coins?
i mean a coin in a plastic bag doesn't look that suave. it's just greed"
MY FOLLOW UP RESPONSE
Thanks for your follow up comments, however,
you just made my point without even realizing it. If people had slabbed
a bunch of avengers #1 along time ago, there would be a lot more around
in good condition. Thus, they would not be worth much due to the availablity
of finding one in nice shape. If you want, you can buy heavier protection
than a plastic bag. And if you are going to spend some good money to buy a
an expensive comic for investment, wouldnt you look through it first to make
sure that it does not have a coupon missing of filled out or other damage.
I mean if you were buying a house, wouldn't you check out any possible damage
yourself, or would you just rely on what the seller tells you.
Basically, you are paying someone else to say you have
a nice comic. If it makes you feel more secure about your investment, they
by all means...
Your coin comparision is not accurate, I am not saying do not protect
the collectible, I am just saying, do it reasonbly. Do coin collectors
need to put coins into protective slabs of plastic? No, in most cases
they are just protected in paper/window coin protectors. And the ones
that are in plastic are not generally put there by some grading association
that all of a sudden makes it more valuable. Further, a coin can be seen
on both sides in its protector, a comic book cannot be seen in its
full form in a slab.
All I am saying, is I have seen trends come and go, I believe this is
another one that is taking advantage of comic buyers. I have been in the
comic business for a very long time, and I would like to tell you that
there are better investments. Dont collect to make money, because it
will not happen (rather, there are better ways to invest and get a
better return, I guarantee you that if you put the same amount of money
into a money market for 20 years, it will be worth a hell of a lot more
than any comic you could invest in for 20 years). Collect for the enjoyment
of collecting. But that is just my opinion.
Mike
FROM A VERY RESPECTIBLE COMIC STORE OWNER IN PHOENIX:
Mike, just wanted to let you know that I rely enjoyed your C.G.C article
and agree with S.C.A.M. !!!! I don't know what's worse a spawn going for
$900 or a Venom going for $850. I said it before and I'll say it again,
the people who get upset when they try and make some return on their initial
investment of a spawn #1 at $900 will never buy a comic in their life again
and will be forever jaded on our hobby. Now I will defend the "Corporate"
grading when buying high grade books for investment purposes. But only then !
And this is something I hope I never get into. I also think the cbg should
print photo's of the idiots who bid these ridiculous prices on modern books,
you know a photo with them and their '' Big Fish'' they just WON . Wow I just
won a 9.8 C.G.C. copy of XO manowar 0 and I got it for a steal only $375 !!
I want to thank you for giving me a good deal on all the stuff I picked up
from your shop. I love your store. If things ever got messy for you drop me a
line, maybe I could open a store up there and you can run it for me. I hope you
didn't take that the wrong way. That's just my way of saying that I respect you
and think you know your stuff.
Mike Malve/Atomic Comics
MY FOLLOW UP RESPONSE:
Thanks, and I could not have said it better myself. And if things ever get
messy for you down there, drop me a line, maybe I could open a Toons and
Beyond down there and you could run it.......A sign of mutual respect!
Mike
RECENTLY (JUNE/JULY 02), Chuck Rozanski, owner of Mile High Comics has run several informative
ariticles in the CBG magazine concerning CGC grading. In response to his articles,
I sent him a link to my website article with the further comment"
Chuck,
I just wanted to let you know that I have enjoyed and agreed with your
CBG articles concerning the CBG. I own a comic store in Prescott Arizona
and have been selling on ebay for years. I posted an article about the
CGC on my website about a year ago, and have since posted responses to
my article to be fair. If you have a chance, please check it out.
I am one of those people who have graded comics for years and enjoy it
as part of the hobby. I think the fact that I have over 3000 + ebay
feedbacks and no given negetive feedbacks (I have 1 negetive given by
accident that cant be removed), means that I do a pretty good job of
grading. I find it offensive that the grading standards would suddenly
change because some third party makes a business off it. What happens
in a year or so when another party comes along and changes it again.
I think grading should be with those it was intented to be with, the
hobbiest,
Mike
TOONS and BEYOND
HERE IS CHUCK ROZNASKI'S RESPONSE:
Dear Mike:
"Thank you very much for taking the time to send me your letter.
I'm sorry I took so long to get back to you, but I have been flooded
with e-mails. As regards your very negative feelings toward CGC,
I'm afraid I can't completely concur. I certainly don't like their
attempt to manipulate prices through ridiculously harsh grading
standards, but I do believe that a well-managed third-party grading
system would help facilitate online sales. The methods that CGC is
employing, however, are clearly manipulative, and designed to only
benefit themselves in the long term. I agree completely with you
that this is damaging to the health of the comics market. "
All the best!
Chuck
HERE IS MY FOLLOW UP EMAIL:
Chuck,
Thanks for your response. I agree that a 3rd party grading system would
be a benefit to collecting, but only one that defines its grading methods.
Further, I do not believe that just because a book is graded by a 3rd party
that it is somehow mystically worth more. A vf book is a vf book whether
it is graded by a third party or half of the free world, and still should
only command a price based on a vf grade, not an over-inflated 3rd party
madness price.
Mike
I've always adored comics. I still have very vivid memories of being a kid
and rushing to the local newsagents with my pocket money to get the latest
issue of whatever caught my eye that day. As i grew, my tastes changed, I
tired of the men in tights and found more thrills in horror and war comics,
then with more underground and alternative titles. Now i am (allegedly) an
adult, i still love comics and my collection is worth quite a lot of money,
as I'm sure are the collections of many of us who have read your article.
I'm currently in the process of setting up a small online comic shop in the
UK, selling only horror, crime, war and alternative comics. I'm doing this
because i get bored of superheroes and i truly believe the best comic shops
are a representation of the owner's taste. I live in Leeds in the north of
England and we have a few comic shops and the ones i am always drawn to are
the smaller, more personal ones, ones where you can clearly see where the
owners loyalties lie. We do have 'clinical' comic shops that sell all the
current issues to hordes of gaggling nu metal kids. The owners don't care
about or even read the comix they sell, they just want to get the kids with
the cash through the doors.
And these kids will miss out on the things i love and have always loved about
collecting comics. Whenever i get a new addition to my collection, i have a
ritual that must be adhered to. I recently bought a beautiful copy of EC's 3D
Classics with both pairs of glasses in, absolutely fabulous condition , not a
cheap item to purchase in the UK, but i'd fallen in love with that particular
issue many years ago and I knew that one day i'd own a copy.
The first thing i did when i slid it out of it's mylar sleeve was to carefully
open the comic and smell it. The smell of vintage comics is something else. A
little musty and dry, but a wonderful smell none the less. Then after putting
my son to bed, i turned the lights down, put some appropriate music on and read
that comic! And for the time it took me to read it (i don't know how long, i wasn't
really looking at the clock) i was in heaven. I read every word, every advertisement,
everything that was in that comic, i read. After I'd finished, i slid it back into
it's sleeve and put it back into the protective case i have reserved for all my more
valuable comics. And that's why i buy comics; to enjoy them, to relish every page,
to appreciate them as the story telling medium they were always intended to be.
I have friend who collects beanie babies. We always half jokingly argue about values,
who will be richest when we retire, sell the lot and buy motorhomes to live in. Although
i will probably never part with my lot! Her argument usually centers around the fact that
her beanies are 'collectables' and worth more from the start where as mine accumulate in
value. If something is sold as a collectable, how can it retain it's market value? As
everyone will keep them in pristine condition, so in 40 years time the market will be
awash with the things, all in absolutely mint condition. As you said, the reason comics
increase in value is largely due to their rarity and not always their grade. Look through
your Overstreet guide and check out some of the prices for some of the lower grade golden
age comics. They are still high, because they are rare.
I agree with some of the people who have responded to you who note that a slab offers
way more protection than a plastic bag. That is true, but all my comics are well preserved,
in PVC free sleeves, with acid free cards and in a very safe place in my house. A slab would
give them no more protection than the protective cases i keep them in that cost next to
nothing from the local stationary shop. I know my son is not going to get hold of them and
i know i am going to be careful if i ever need to transport them. So the only reason i would
have to get them CGC graded would be to increase their value. Which is of no consiquence to
me as they are for my pleasure alone.
And so, it all boils down to the different types of collectors. To use an example already
qouted on your website, there are those people who collect cars. They drive them in rallys
and enjoy showing off their pride and joy to other enthusiasts. That is their life, what
they live for and what drives their obsession (excuse the pun). Then there are collectors
of cars who keep them in large studios, away from prying eyes, but knowing they will probably
get a much bigger return on their investment should they choose to sell it. But if that's what
brings them happiness, then the best of luck to them. And the best of luck to all the collectors
and dealers who use CGC grading. I sincerely hope you don't loose out on the money you have paid
for grading and graded comix. Personally, i think you will in the long run, but that is just
speculation. But i shal continue to enjoy reading and smelling my vintage comix for many years
to come.
Oh and i used an old pair of 3D glasses, i didn't remove the EC ones! I may be foolish, but
i'm not stupid!
Alan
HERE IS MY FOLLOW UP EMAIL:
Alan,
Bravo! Well Stated!
Mike
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Toons and Beyond 1513 Majestic Way Prescott, Arizona 86301 |
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Email: tbeyond@cableone.net
Proprietor: Michael Berlowe |